Curse

manitoba1073 · Jun 17, 2008, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Shrine bonuses off is a given, but 3x damage just isn't fun to play against and is kind of unnecessary.

If you've found the weakness, I'd love to hear it.

Giving it away would spoil the fun of that now wouldnt it.

But Ill give you a hint. Its not in the skills used by the players or the keepers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The difference between Ursan Blessing and the Junundu, is that the Junundu were location specific. If the Blessings were made to be location specific (as it has been suggested many a times) then there would be little, if any, complaining. It would be a second Junundu (or third as the Siege Devourer is second

).

If these suggestions were to be added, then you switched the imba from the player to the game. That is not fun.

Imba on either side=not fun
A challenge=fun
Hard=A Challenge
Impossible=Imba
Your suggestions=Imba
Your suggestions=Not Fun
Harder than Hard Mode=Hard

Harder than Hard Mode=Fun

What else can I add to that to make it so that an imba game is not fun but a challenging game is?

My previous suggestions still stand. And you still have yet to add Tombs to the Elite Missions for the title

. It is still an elite mission right? They didn't put it back to a HoH arena or anything right? Didn't think so.

Come on now. Get serious. Cant have it half and half. Allow all or none, no half assing it here pal.

Seriously though you cant allow anything not just the little things here. If your gonna go for the extra rewards as suggested then yes those things listed need to be added.

4. Reimplementation of refund points for challange mode

Im sure Ill come up with more.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 17, 2008, 09:47 AM // 09:47

restricting heroes & hench is a bad idea as most of the people interested only play with h/h these days.

I'd have to say its a terrible idea thats trying to put a bandaid over a problem. This is what hard mode was supposed to be till bad players complained they couldn't do it.
If this was implemented in a few months anet would end up changing it so bad players can do it anyway.

What people realy mean when they want skill>time is for the foes to have equal or closer stats to your own team while having AI. Increasing their hp, armour, attack speed, movement speed and damage dealt is not challenge. It simply forces you to exploit poor AI.

The problem to getting a perfect skill>time setup would be having AI thats a challence yet still not as hard to defeat as real players. If it was as good as a real team then every mob encounter would take 15+minutes to defeat.
PvE maps would also have to be built around the concept as well.

I think a nice balance for gw2 would be to have a bunch of mobs in a zone like we do now but place better AI challenging foes at stopgap points in front of various portals (have the doors closed till the boss in the mob is defeated too). and as quest mobs.
That way you could play through the game at normal pace then you encounter the challenging part that will take slightly longer.

A solution such as this that does not involve simply beefing up foes would be a godsend in gw2 and would realy make the game stand out from all others.

Skye Marin · Jun 17, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Giving it away would spoil the fun of that now wouldnt it.

But Ill give you a hint. Its not in the skills used by the players or the keepers.

Ah, gotcha. Well, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to have no Locked Chests spawn in the Gate of Desolation Mission. The benefits of Challenger Mode are intended for Missions and Dungeons, not explorable areas.

Read my third downside point in the OP about why it isn't harder than it already is. There has to be a limit. As-is, this task will be very frustrating for many people, and making it harder by throwing in things like scalar extra damage will just force people rely on "cheap" tactics like a crutch.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 17, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Come on now. Get serious. Cant have it half and half. Allow all or none, no half assing it here pal.

Seriously though you cant allow anything not just the little things here. If your gonna go for the extra rewards as suggested then yes those things listed need to be added.

The reason you can't go all the way is because if its too hard, then no one will want to play except the suicidals and crazy people who think ANet will come up with a "Death Title Track."

Make it hard, but not too hard.

@isamu kurosawa

In terms of enemies, there are three ways to make a good game experience through the enemies.

1) Mobs upon Mobs that are (somewhat) easy to defeat, especially alone, but in mass numbers are hard (like in DOOM and DOOM2). This however does not work with how GW (and probably GW2) is set up, the mobs idea cannot work with an "auto-target" type of system like GW has. It has to be a "press x to attack once" not "press x to attack until another command or enemy dead." Sadly, this seems to be the direction ANet is trying to take things, at least with how strong the player is.

2) Small groups, or singular opponents, that are very tough, mainly through AI. This was attempted at times (Imperial Sanctum, Doppleganger, etc), but this idea doesn't work because its a team game, the idea with the Doppleganger works, because only one person can be in the team, but the others, not so much. This is the best way to go with enemy set up and AI, imo, but it isn't suited for team games like GW.

3) Small to Medium groups that are balanced themselves. This is basically what you suggested, and is probably the best course to go with this game. However, the problem is that have many groups like this would make the game take too much time, which is not what people want, for various reasons.

What I suggest for GW2, is to have a mixture of all three, have areas where its just mobs upon mobs of enemies that are easy/somewhat easy to defeat, and a few solo missions where you fight a powerful enemy, and a few team missions where you have to fight a VERY powerful enemy (would be sweet to see 12 or so people fighting Primordus or the other Ancient Dragons) but most of the game have enemies with balanced teams, but a little poorer states in order to make the time issue go away.

Fun fact: Spell check suggests Primroses for Primordus... What's a Primrose?

RotteN · Jun 17, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Here's an idea : if you realy want a challenge, try playing against humans instead of AI. Cause no damage multiplier, environmental effect or skill restriction will ever create something more challenging than taking on human intelligence.

And you know what's even better ? It already has TONS of titles, and it's all already in the game ! Can it get any better ?

Savio · Jun 17, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

And you know what's even better ? It already has TONS of titles, and it's all already in the game ! Can it get any better ?

It could be balanced and thriving.

The reason PvE is lackluster is not because the numbers aren't big or small enough. The AI is dumb and has subpar builds, and there's not much endgame content for players of varying skill levels. You need to fix those problems before you touch numbers at all.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 17, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

The reason you can't go all the way is because if its too hard, then no one will want to play except the suicidals and crazy people who think ANet will come up with a "Death Title Track."

Make it hard, but not too hard.

@isamu kurosawa

In terms of enemies, there are three ways to make a good game experience through the enemies.

1) Mobs upon Mobs that are (somewhat) easy to defeat, especially alone, but in mass numbers are hard (like in DOOM and DOOM2). This however does not work with how GW (and probably GW2) is set up, the mobs idea cannot work with an "auto-target" type of system like GW has. It has to be a "press x to attack once" not "press x to attack until another command or enemy dead." Sadly, this seems to be the direction ANet is trying to take things, at least with how strong the player is.

2) Small groups, or singular opponents, that are very tough, mainly through AI. This was attempted at times (Imperial Sanctum, Doppleganger, etc), but this idea doesn't work because its a team game, the idea with the Doppleganger works, because only one person can be in the team, but the others, not so much. This is the best way to go with enemy set up and AI, imo, but it isn't suited for team games like GW.

3) Small to Medium groups that are balanced themselves. This is basically what you suggested, and is probably the best course to go with this game. However, the problem is that have many groups like this would make the game take too much time, which is not what people want, for various reasons.

What I suggest for GW2, is to have a mixture of all three, have areas where its just mobs upon mobs of enemies that are easy/somewhat easy to defeat, and a few solo missions where you fight a powerful enemy, and a few team missions where you have to fight a VERY powerful enemy (would be sweet to see 12 or so people fighting Primordus or the other Ancient Dragons) but most of the game have enemies with balanced teams, but a little poorer states in order to make the time issue go away.

Fun fact: Spell check suggests Primroses for Primordus... What's a Primrose?

Thats why i suggested keeping standard foes like we have now in zones and only the advanced AI with decent build mobs at critical points in missions, as quest objectives or entrances to certain areas.
Stops zones being empty or taking to long to clear with an easier transition from the gw1 system.
Something liek dungeons in eotn attempted but with the abillity to start from scrach and do things right. As it stands now, all "difficult" dungeon mobs/bosses are killed by explaiting bad AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The reason PvE is lackluster is not because the numbers aren't big or small enough. The AI is dumb and has subpar builds, and there's not much endgame content for players of varying skill levels. You need to fix those problems before you touch numbers at all.

Its a shame anet recently makes decisions to make al difficulty modes accessable to anyone.

Torabo · Jun 18, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

..... And how does making things harder => skill > time?

It'll take much longer to finish areas... meaning only people with LOTS OF TIME can do this.

Go get a team and play PVP instead.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 18, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Thats why i suggested keeping standard foes like we have now in zones and only the advanced AI with decent build mobs at critical points in missions, as quest objectives or entrances to certain areas.
Stops zones being empty or taking to long to clear with an easier transition from the gw1 system.
Something liek dungeons in eotn attempted but with the abillity to start from scrach and do things right. As it stands now, all "difficult" dungeon mobs/bosses are killed by explaiting bad AI.

And I was agreeing with you, was I not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

..... And how does making things harder => skill > time?

It'll take much longer to finish areas... meaning only people with LOTS OF TIME can do this.

Go get a team and play PVP instead.

Because with harder things, it will take "skill" to beat them. For those without skills, it will take a long time to beat it, but thats the idea behind skill>time. And I'll just ignore that PvP statement, some people (like myself) don't like the attitude from other people. "Haha noob" gets very annoying very fast, at least AI don't insult you (often).

manitoba1073 · Jun 18, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Heres the thing with 3x EXP you do really realize how fast you would lose DP and unnecessary it would be to have a gap on it. That is why I suggested the no means of losing it. Get 15% Dp and work it off after 1 mob. Not really a challange then.

For the bosses having 3x damage. You should know that even if one was to hit you with it it can be made to be near nothing.

So the bigger the numbers really wouldnt be that big of a deal to begin with.

Skye
I know it would get frustrating for some players but look how DoA was actually thought to be at first. It would be the same thing basically.

And I figured thats what you were talking about missions and dungeons,

I think you missed the hint, so heres another.

How did people get max number of stuff from the unlocked chests in Sorrows Furnace?

Skye Marin · Jun 18, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

I'm against 3x damage because players shouldn't have to rely on Protective Spirit and only Protective Spirit to simply survive. To keep the majority of prot spells viable, a single packet of damage should really never go above ~140 without some special considerations of the source and target (ie, Lighting Orb to a Frenzy Healsig).

And now, some quick math about XP and DP:

Monsters +11 levels higher than you give, 280 XP to the party, or 490 XP with the +75% bonus. Split between 8 players, that's roughly 60 XP per player, and it takes 75XP to repair -1% DP. You'd have to kill 20 enemies to get back your -15% DP, which seems fair enough to me considering the new limit for failure. On average, monsters are +6-8 levels above, raising the required kills to about 28.

I think I'm clueless regarding your hints if it's not Jujundu farming. Does it have something to do with the crushers in Sorrow's Furnace?

Sometime I think I'm the only person who like PvP and PvE both equally and a whole lot. Tons of PvE folks don't really like PvP and won't facilitate a move. I won't hold it against them :P.

manitoba1073 · Jun 18, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I'm against 3x damage because players shouldn't have to rely on Protective Spirit and only Protective Spirit to simply survive. To keep the majority of prot spells viable, a single packet of damage should really never go above ~140 without some special considerations of the source and target (ie, Lighting Orb to a Frenzy Healsig).

And now, some quick math about XP and DP:

Monsters +11 levels higher than you give, 280 XP to the party, or 490 XP with the +75% bonus. Split between 8 players, that's roughly 60 XP per player, and it takes 75XP to repair -1% DP. You'd have to kill 20 enemies to get back your -15% DP, which seems fair enough to me considering the new limit for failure. On average, monsters are +6-8 levels above, raising the required kills to about 28.

I think I'm clueless regarding your hints if it's not Jujundu farming. Does it have something to do with the crushers in Sorrow's Furnace?

Sometime I think I'm the only person who like PvP and PvE both equally and a whole lot. Tons of PvE folks don't really like PvP and won't facilitate a move. I won't hold it against them :P.

No it's ok. I used to like both before Anet went carebear for PvP and made it monkey see monkey do.

What they used to was use the H/H to clear the place out for the quest send the H/H outa range. Then they would get all the drops from the chests.
Even with lootscaling in place they get 2x the drops. So all they would have to do leave everyone else at the start( 7 of the chances for your spawning keepers there

) while one is off soloing as long as the others where outa the way.

Had a few more thoughts at work on this for you skye.

OK its gonna be a rework of your idea

Back to the point of DP-
However you can loss DP by performing side quests in these missions.

The missions will be different from there normal way. That way its not repeating the same things over and over.

The way they will work is (your Keepers of the Challanges) will be allies instead of enemies. You enter the Challange mode of each mission. When you enter you talk to the Keeper of that mission. He then gives you certain mini-quests to do. Upon completion of each mini-quest you lose 15% DP.

PvE skills or consumables will be usable due to the effect of THE MISTS ( Along the lines of the GW lore) Explains why you cant use them

Henchies are not useable but Heros will be,(compromise for some)

The mini-quest will have you doing things as preventing creatures that would have overran your party in the normal missions if you wouldnt have stopped them doing the MIST Challanges. Such as Azazel suggestion of mobs stuff.

I think you get the general idea.

Skye on the 3x damage. Players wouldnt have to soley rely on prot spirit, there is many other ways to lessen,mitigate or even ignore the amount of damage. But sometimes it takes that slap to the face to get some players to realize it.

Posts Merged by Celestial Beaver: Please use the button in future.

RotteN · Jun 19, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Skye on the 3x damage. Players wouldnt have to soley rely on prot spirit, there is many other ways to lessen,mitigate or even ignore the amount of damage. But sometimes it takes that slap to the face to get some players to realize it.

Please do list all the other ways to "lessen, mitigate or ignore" 400 damage spells from "casters on steroids".

manitoba1073 · Jun 19, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

Please do list all the other ways to "lessen, mitigate or ignore" 400 damage spells from "casters on steroids".

Heres a couple right off the bat. Reversal of fortune, prot bond, spell sheild, as I said thats just a couple. Id list more but since wikki is acting up on me i cant. SOme are even fun to use such as reversal on high hitting bosses like that.

Kanyatta · Jun 19, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Imba on either side=not fun
A challenge=fun
Hard=A Challenge
Impossible=Imba
Your suggestions=Imba
Your suggestions=Not Fun
Harder than Hard Mode=Hard

Harder than Hard Mode=Fun

Imba on the side of the monsters = Hard
*as previously stated* Hard= A challenge
Harder than HM = Fun
*but you say* Imba = Not Fun
*so, in theory* Fun = Not fun

OH SHI-

RotteN · Jun 19, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Heres a couple right off the bat. Reversal of fortune, prot bond, spell sheild, as I said thats just a couple. Id list more but since wikki is acting up on me i cant. SOme are even fun to use such as reversal on high hitting bosses like that.

[[Reversal of [email protected]] : good one, too bad it has a maximum that is balanced around normal gameplay. So when facing 400 damage spells, you'd still be hit for 320ish damage. Might make a small difference with one boss hitting that hard, but an entire mob ? Dead in seconds.

[[Spirit [email protected]] : This will mean close to nothing when not paired with protective spirit if you face such large amounts of damage

[[spell [email protected]] : this skill is crap, i would never even consider using it.

[[protective [email protected]] : yeah, it's the bad version of protective spirit. Surely you could use it to claim protective spirit isn't needed, taking you're seriously screwing yourself over by using protective bond instead.

Skye Marin · Jun 19, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Sorrow's Furnace chests aren't Locked Chests, and wouldn't contain only golds.

Reliance on Protective Spirit simply to survive isn't fun.

Tyla · Jun 19, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

snip

And then you've got some AoE's. Yes, sorted by splitting out but on a large radius it can be painful. Preprotting everyone with Spirit Bond then aggroing but still dying after in like 1 second is bad.

RotteN · Jun 19, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Don't know about anyone else, but I lol'd when thinking about pairing Spirit Bond with Spirit Bond.

gah, studying is seriously damaging my ability to reread properly so it seems. I ment protective spirit xD (adjusted in original post aswell)

Thizzle · Jun 19, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

I like the idea, but three difficulties would be pushing it. I don't even like that they added Hard Mode except to go farm things in. It seems you put much thought into this though.

/signed.